Reply "Err no, no it was just one of these things that you know naturally happened err I think the children, you do whatever is the easiest and you know you fall into a pattern and it just seemed, you know whenever you wanted to put your kids down or whenever they were tired or you know as I say ours slept in the afternoon but I’m, you know for example I know that Sean and Amelie didn’t you know tend to have sleeps err you know and Madeleine, during the day. So you know they, yeah their time was pretty occupied right from first thing in the morning till…”
Reply "You know when they went to bed, whereas for us we had that kind of period of time where we had to be up in our room, you know to get them off to bed after and so we would, that’s why we were generally at that spot at the same time,
.....whereas you know err whatever routine that Kate and Gerry fell into they fell into it for, you know to fit around the way that they constructed their day, err as, you know I say they, you know they were keen on the tennis side of it so that was something that they were doing err so it’s all, you know, to’ing and fro’ing, perhaps you know like Dianne one day would have a lesson, then one day err you know Jane would perhaps err play and stay with Matt and Rachael err Matt was quite keen on the water sports and Russell so perhaps some days they’d go down so it’s all very dynamic err situation.
But err you know I, I suppose the other thing is you know L*** and E**a you know they’ve grown up from very little together so it was always nice for them to, to, you know to join up together and whether that was…”
Reply "You know its quite subconscious things as well, they like meeting up, err during the mornings E**a you know was slightly older than L*** so she’d go to the err Ocean Club and err yeah so L*** didn’t see E**a so you know she perhaps, you know come up at that stage you know, so.”
01:04:52 1485 "So your days generally speaking were taken up by doing your own activities.”
1485 "And taking your children to activities then doing your water sports.”
Reply "That’s it.”
1485 "Eating and them having a sleep.”
1485 "Would that be the generally, I’m not gonna go through day to day…”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
1485 "Because you…”
Reply "I can’t.”
1485 "I get the picture what you’re saying is…”
Reply "Yeah, yeah.”
1485 "I can understand that.”
Reply "Yeah, I mean you know some days we’d perhaps go, you know as I say it wasn’t the same everyday and we’d perhaps go down to the beach you know we’d take you know go down to the beach or perhaps we’d do some water sports down there
...... and then err Fiona would perhaps bring the kids along and we’d, you know we’d play with them on the beach and then we’d, you know we’d have something to eat err down in the restaurant at the err which looked over the beach.
So, but you know large, by and large there wasn’t a great deal of variety, we didn’t say oh we’d try eating there another night or we’ll do this on err you know another night.
I think you know when we ate at the Millennium on the first night we you know we’d give them, what I said before, the it’s a bit away and everything and, and I can’t remember whose idea it was but you know well we thought the Tapas bar, that’s much better why don’t we try and err book there.
Err I think, I think it was Rachael, she’s very organised and err you know whether she just booked for the first night at the Tapas and then decided that she’s gonna book for subsequent nights err at the err not the main reception but the reception leading into the Tapas area,
....the Paul with I think the lady’s Sylvia, and so she booked the err you know from early in the morning because I think they had to get in early to make sure that you know they could guarantee, there’s only so many people who could eat there.”
01:06:38 Reply "And we just thought it was much better to eat there, it was much more convenient and err you know there wasn’t the, you know you had to walk away and it just, you know seemed a much better idea doing that really but you know generally we just fell into the pattern on the whole but a slight variation of where we ate but not a great deal.”
1485 "Mm, so for the rest of the week did you, the first night was the Millennium.”
1485 "For the rest of the week did you then eat at the Tapas every night?”
Reply "Yes, yes. I think, yes I think you know for me, Fiona and Dianne you know we, fortunately for us, managed to be there you know every night, ....
.....usually most nights there was somebody who’d been, or a child who’d been ill ....
......and you know their parents would you know stay to look after the child or you know if they’d been unwell themselves you know and didn’t, didn’t want to come out so, but we you know, we were there every night.”
1485 "Yeah. So that, it’s okay, so that first night then at the Tapas, that was obviously when this relaying came to notice where everyone was checking their children. Can you tell me about that?”
Reply "Yeah, err it’s, it’s funny in that you know you, when you’re with a group of people and you’re sat at a table, you don’t, you know you’re not always aware of you know, if it was four people sat at a table and someone goes its much more obvious you know that they’ve gone
err and given the fact that we were slightly different in the way that you know we had the monitoring service, that, I didn’t quite pay attention to what everyone else was doing but they were very, you know by the conversation you know who was going, you know they were very, the other groups were very strict in the timing that they would go.
Err you know the, you know the certain, you know from what I can remember there wasn’t anything longer than thirty minutes you know in between one of the couples looking after their own, and again this is only from chatting to people, not from my own recollections.”
01:08:48 Reply "Is that they all looked after their own children, they all went to look on their own children from each of the nights but you know I was just, you know slightly oblivious to this because we’d set up ours and you know I know everyone went at some stage.”
Reply "Err as I say you know err one night you know Matt wasn’t very well and you know wasn’t there,
err and you know so there were some nights where you, you realised at the table that someone was, you know was missing for the full event of the evening....
.....and then you’d perhaps see someone might go, so most of the time you know people would, you know from the group someone would go at a regular interval, and you know all I can say was you know people were very strict about this and it was something that they you know, it wasn’t like ah shall we go now, you know now we’ve, nah they’ll be fine, it wasn’t you know everyone was very strict and it comes back to the, you know the Mark Warner, we were just trying to replicate what they, you know as a policy which they’ve adapted you know at their sights across Europe.”
Reply "And we thought well okay if they’re not gonna do that we’ll, you know this is what we do, it’s not, not far away err so and everyone adhered, you know looked after their own children and did it very regularly.
But I couldn’t say on this night this person went.”
01:10:12 1485 "Right, I’m gonna ask you that, I’m gonna ask you to try and think now, see if you can see it in your head now any occasions where you noticed say Matt had gone and then you noticed when Jane had gone, try and see it in your head and try and, it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the, I’m only interested at this moment up until Wednesday.”
1485 "Try and remember whether you saw specifically anything going on.”
Reply "Mm yeah, err I mean as I say I know, or, I, the big problems with err Matt he’d been unwell one night and G***e had been poorly and I think and E**e so there’d been some, you know there’d been concerns from that point of view and err so perhaps one of those, you know the adults out of the people I just mentioned would be you know away from the table but specifically who went back to look on what night and who went you know there’s no chance that I remember.”
Reply "I’ve, I thought about this but I can’t, can’t recall.”
1485 "Yeah. Do you recollect, I’m just trying to pick at a loose end, but could you see your own apartment from where you were sat?”
1485 "And did you sit in the same seat virtually every evening?”
Reply "Err wasn’t the same seat every evening, err but I tended to sit more round one side of the table than, than the others which, you know I generally, you know if I tried to paint a picture that I was in a prime seat so I could look into my apartment every night then that wouldn’t be truthful.”
Reply "But err but just by where I did sit I generally could see in that direction.”
01:12:00 1485 "Right, okay. Is there anything at all that you can think might be useful leading up to Thursday, in the evenings, that you can remember now?”
1485 "And conversation? Because I understand it was cold, rainy on a couple of days.”
Reply "Mm, mm, yes. I mean from the, you know from the, yeah it was quite cold some nights and you know perhaps nearly too cold to be sat outside err but there was certainly nothing that you know led me to any concern during that week err you know it was, you know we were all quite happy with, I say, what we were doing and err where, you know the way that we’d tackle things, it was err you know there’s nothing that in my mind worried me.”
1485 "Okay, and again going back to the daytime, in amongst your activities, because your activities, Fiona’s activities in relation to the other group’s activities, is there anything that stands out?”
1485 "The beach?”
Reply "No, I mean we sometimes we’d, you know on the beach we’d see the Mark Warner you know see our children down there and sometimes it was you know err you’d see them playing there which was a little bit difficult because you know you didn’t want them to see you because it’d be hard on them.
I often went down with Fiona, as I say we were err you know interested in the water sports side of things err and err Matt and Russell sometimes went you know they, Matt’s very good on the err catamaran and I know that Russell and Matt sometimes did that.
Err and I say Kate and Gerry took, I don’t they’re particularly water sports err people, err so they, you know they weren’t interested in that side of it but you know, there was nothing really that sprung to my attention that worried me.”
01:14:27 1485 "What about, again I’m bitting and bobbing here, I’m trying to jog your memory.”
Reply "Yes I know.”
1485 "Which, you know.”
Reply "Not easy.”
1485 "When you go to dinner in the Tapas what sort of time in the evening would you go?”
Reply "Err I think it was a bit of a standing joke that we were always the last there err you know we tended to, you know we were getting later and later
I think as the week went on, err you know the table I think was generally booked from about half past eight and people would arrive anything from perhaps eight o’ clock, but generally we were on the, after you know just after half past eight I’d say, you know rather than on the good side of half past eight.
So you know, and err there was usually a comment when we arrived.”
1485 "What, like here they are or something?”
Reply "Here they are again, yes, kind of so err yeah obviously on, on the you know if you wanted to go onto the, the night Madeleine disappeared.”
1485 "Yeah, not yet.”
Reply "We’ll do that, yeah.”
01:15:33 1485 "Okay, err so you know there’s, yeah there’s, yeah, you know, you know we chatted about it, you know the quiz night and who was there err you know I know there was the odd couple here and there on certain, different nights err I remember one night, I think it was the quiz night, there was the err the instructor who does the err pilates and the aerobics
.....and you know was chatting with her one night err but again you know my, as for observation of what was else going around me wasn’t particularly great.
Err you know Wednesday night we stayed a bit later that night err you know we, we had a drink in the bar after which was the only night that we, you know we did that, but apart from that there’s nothing else.”
1485 "When you got down to dinner most evenings, was everybody there bar yourselves, were you always the last ones?”
Reply "Err generally we were always the last there unless you know there’d been any illnesses or you know someone arrived later but as far as I remember we were always usually pretty much the last there.”
1485 "Yeah. Why were you late?”
Reply "Err we’re rubbish?
I don’t know, err I think you know we, I think we, we are renowned for that, err its probably me but you know we just, in terms of efficiency of getting the kids down and you know make sure everyone’s ready in time we’re just a bit poor at doing that.”
01:17:12 1485 "And when you leave would you, how would you sort the children out?”
Reply "Yeah, I mean most nights I say we would err they would be asleep before we left.
There was one night where we were quite late and they wouldn’t go down and I said oh I’ll stay up and you know I’ll keep an eye on them and wait till they’ve gone to sleep and then I’ll, I’ll come down.
Err you know and again, you know I say Fi could hear the monitor quite clearly err that night and again, just another reassuring that we had that monitor.
Err but yeah, apart from that I can’t, so yeah perhaps it was slightly more difficult with the two, you know our two, getting them off to sleep err you know Scarlet was err you know the youngest there so she wasn’t quite into a good pattern like the others so you know it perhaps takes a little bit longer from that point of view, but err I was just rubbish.”
1485 "Would the children always be asleep then by the time you’d left?”
Reply "Yeah, yeah. Yeah we’d certainly leave when they were asleep and I say or if they weren’t then I’d, I’d you know at that time of the night I can remember that L*** was awake and wait until she’d gone.
Err but by and large I can’t remember any nights when they weren’t asleep when we went down.”
1485 "And what sort of time would you generally put them to sleep?”
Reply "Err I mean we would, so they, I mean they had the you know if they ate at the err kids club you know and again it’s just difficult what happened after,
...you know for the weeks after because we ate at the kids club then, did we eat before, how often did we eat, ours were a bit fussy on the eating and from what I can remember sometimes we ate you know in the, in the room, but that could’ve been mixed up with my recollections of you know what we did after.
Err but that was generally around five, five thirty so we wouldn’t certainly get back to the room till six...,
...we often went to the play area you know that seemed to be quite another time of the day where we, you know most people would be there and the children were there err you know played, sometimes you know there was a social tennis bit in the evening err certainly we tended to watch a little bit of that if we hadn’t played, you know, ourselves and then from err from there you know say right okay it’s time to go up,...
...... so perhaps you go up around six thirty, seven o’ clock, then they’d have you know the, most nights we liked to give ours baths because you know we just felt that we liked to get them into as much of a routine in a strange environment as possible.
Err you know so probably we’re looking at trying to get them down about seven thirty, somewhere around there.”
01:20:00 1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "Err then started getting ready, which is usually say pretty last minute and then rush to get ready and then you know as soon as the three of us were ready then right let’s go down err perhaps the other thing was the logistics of like three people getting ready in one bathroom you know you have to wait longer, whereas the others were just two people.”
1485 "Yeah. So generally as a rule when you were ready to go, how would you leave the apartment?”
Reply "Okay, so the, you know obviously the, err the bal, err the sliding doors and the balcony were always err shut err you know the monitor was always put in the position that we’ve err you know mentioned, which is you know on the floor between the two doors.
Err and Fi would, you know, generally look after the monitor err the mobile unit and err and again as far as I can recall Dianne tended to be the most reliable to look after the key.
Err and then you know so the door would be locked err you know you wouldn’t be able to get in that door from the outside, in terms of the doors in the children’s bedroom we left them slightly ajar you know just again so we could hear them err the eldest, L***’s always been used to the door being slightly open so you know if we’d have shut it she didn’t particularly like that so those doors were open.
Err the shutters, yeah they, they, I can only ever remember them being down but you know obviously we spoke about this since and you know if we say perhaps during the day to let a bit of light in the room the shutters were err you know moved up, but on the whole the shutters were down err when we left.
Err you know the television you know was switched off and you know there was nothing else really unique I don’t think about how we left the apartment.”
01:22:03 Reply "Err I can’t, you know there’s one, you know right at the beginning I’d had the key and I’d misplaced it in my pockets or somewhere and that was the moment that Dianne took it on herself that she was gonna be, you know Dianne’s extremely good that way and probably being a mother of three very organised and so she was, you know, err then we’d go off down to the Tapas bar or you know usually the three of us together.”
1485 "Yeah. Would you have passed anybody on the way?”
1485 "Up until Thursday.”
Reply "Up until Thursday, again you know we could well have had a conversation either with you know err Matt and Rachael or Russ and Jane you know or if their doors were open or we’d give them a knock you know and say we’re going over but again generally we were the last there.....
......but there may have been times that we just you know knocked on them just to see whether they were coming over or meet you over there but again I can’t remember.”
1485 "And what about on the actual route down to the Tapas, would you have passed any other group then?”
Reply "Err not really because, unless someone was coming back from…”
1485 "Yeah that’s what I mean.”
Reply "Err again you know I can’t remember apart from on the night you know people passing by or you know specifically.”
01:23:21 1485 "Okay. Just a general question about the resort, what was it like? Was it busy? Or you know, was there a lot of people in your, in the Ocean Club? The resort in general, was it busy?”
Reply "It did, it didn’t seem busy err at all err it, you know it seemed very quiet.
The, and you know, if that wasn’t the first week you could book it was certainly the second week so it certainly hadn’t err had many people there,
....you know chatting to Mark Warner staff they’d not been long err you know many weeks out there preparing and you know they, so easy for them I think with the number of children that they had because it wasn’t you know anywhere near capacity err for them.
If you err its you know a beautiful place, beautiful beach and you know and you expect the place is usually a lot busier than that and it you know but it certainly seemed very quiet for that time of, well not, sorry, not for that time of year but just seemed very quiet but not, you know it was understandable for that time of the year.
Err you know err the err the pool area you would never see a great number of people by, by the pool, you know the water was actually quite cold, you had to be quite brave to go in the pool.
You know the Tapas area itself during the daytime certainly you’d perhaps see the odd people from time to time, err but it wasn’t, it certainly wasn’t full by, you know, any capacity.
Err you know and the eating in the Millennium the first night, I say I can’t recall hardly any other people being there and when we had been eating in the Tapas bar there wasn’t many couples in the evening you know so the general reflection for the whole time was err there wasn’t that many people.
Err you know there was some other couples that err Kate and Gerry had you know made friends with through the err tennis you know that we got to know a little bit as well and you know you generally tend to see the same people err but yeah it was very quiet err you know it was quite windy err you know which wasn’t surprising as I say already it had been quite cold in the evening but err so that’s really my…”
Reply "Recollections of what the place, how the place came across but.”
01:25:47 1485 "I think one of you commented on err England being warm while you were over there.”
Reply "Was it? Probably.”
1485 "Can you remember that?”
Reply "Err probably.”
1485 "Just have a quick check of the time. We’re gonna go for a break shortly.”
1485 "I’ve just gotta check, make sure I haven’t missed anything.”
1485 "In this first interview and then we’ll close the interview and get you drink, alright?”
Reply "Okay, that’s brilliant, thank you.”
1485 "Did you actually offer to check any of the children? I know you say that you didn’t have to check yours.”
Reply "Yeah, no I never, I never did offer to check.
Err there, as much as I you know, know, knew all the children well I err I probably wouldn’t have felt, you know, bizarrely I wouldn’t have felt quite comfortable checking them, ....
....more, you know if I, if it was at home and perhaps one of the children wasn’t settling you know I’d go upstairs and go well you know could you be quiet but there I didn’t feel quite comfortable doing that, it just, you know if the child was crying or upset and not sleeping I think the first person you know at that stage probably…”
1485 "Yeah. Okay at this stage I’ve got no further questions, as I say with how, how its constructed in phases, lead you up to you know, I’m conscious I’ve led you up to the third of May.”
1485 "Is there anything, think hard, is there anything that we’ve discussed or we haven’t discussed that you feel you ought to bring to my attention now?”
Reply "Err you know I suppose the only thing to reinforce is that you know at this stage you know we were having a very good week, you know apart from the odd illness here and there, there was just nothing upsetting the group, there was no unusual behaviour, there was nothing that was untoward about anybody there, err certainly Kate and Gerry were you know very happy, interacting well and the children were extremely happy.”
01:28:39 Reply "And you know we’d fallen, as I say we did vary things slightly but we’d all fall in to pretty much you know a reasonable pattern, framework of doing things and err you know everyone was enjoying themselves.”
1485 "Yeah. Was there anybody around the resort or you know your, the Ocean Club in general that you weren’t happy with?”
Reply "Err we, you know we did obviously retrospectively question you know who’d been in, in to the resort to actually work there.
They, on one of the days they had some err gardening people which we hadn’t you know seen before and we you know we just wondered, you know, after Madeleine had gone err you know who they were and what their you know validity was if you like.
Err the, I know that again, you know Kate and Gerry had had problems err with I think it was the blinds in their flat and the fridge and they’d had people in err you know into the flat, you know which obviously retrospectively was a concern as well.
Err yeah that, you know who were those people, had they been checked out.”
Reply "Err but apart from that err there was nothing else that really you know springs to mind.”
1485 "Okay. That’s it for the time being.”
1485 "I’ll check, once we’ve done this interview, I’ll check with my colleagues to see whether I’ve missed anything during this interview, alright?”
Reply "That’s great.”
1485 "But in the meantime I’ll stop this interview now and it’s coming up to, it’s eleven fifty four.”
01:30:31 The interview ceased at 1154 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.